Posts by Cold Steel

26

Is Jehovah Male Or Female, Manly of Womanly

by frankiespeakin in

why is jehovah in the bible a male?

why not female since he is a god that is not earthly but from another realm where they don't have sex differences, does he have a penis?

does he have to pee and relieve himself?

Cold Steel

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jehovah is the Father God, not the Son. According to Hebrew trandition, Yahweh was a Son of the Father God. In short, Jehovah and Jesus were one and the same. The Jehovah's Witnesses, on the other hand, believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel. Jesus, however, thought it not improper to make himself "equal to God." He also told the Jews, "Before Abraham was, I AM," meaning that he was the great "I AM" of scripture, that is, Yahweh.

11

Outside of the Middle East... did God just hate everyone else?

by sosoconfused in

this is one thing that i just can not seem to resolve in my mind and i want people... in particular diehard christians to please explain something to me.. we have humans on 7 continents for thousands of years before the bible was written and in many places for 2000 years after the bible was written had no concept of christianity at all.

never hearing of jesus or reading the book of revelation.

they had sophisticated religious belilefs in many cases - and venerated god or gods and no doubt these people really wanted to please these dieties.

Cold Steel

All men are children of God, and He loves all of them. I'm not one of those who think most of those "other" people are damned to an everlasting hell just because they had no knowledge of God.

I wouldn't worry about the ancient peoples too much, as the scriptures tell us the day will come when every knee shall bend and every tongue confess Christ. The ancient (pre-Christian) Israelites and Hebrews weren't exactly anything to write home about. The patriarchs and prophets were decent people, even exceptional, but the rest had their ups and downs...and downs.

26

Is Jehovah Male Or Female, Manly of Womanly

by frankiespeakin in

why is jehovah in the bible a male?

why not female since he is a god that is not earthly but from another realm where they don't have sex differences, does he have a penis?

does he have to pee and relieve himself?

Cold Steel

Asking "why" questions in theology is always a bit of a guessing game.

Why is the senior God called "Father"? And why is the mediator called "Son"? In what sense are we the "children" of God? And where is a father and a son without a mother? A craggy old Mormon apostle in 1878 stated:

“What,” says one, “do you mean we should understand that Deity consists of man and woman?” Most certainly I do. If I believe anything that God has ever said about himself ... I must believe that deity consists of man and woman ... there can be no God except he is composed of the man and woman united, and there is not in all the eternities that exist, or ever will be a God in any other way.”

In Genesis, the account has God saying, "Man has become as one of us." Genesis also states that "God" made man in his image, after his likeness. In these verses, the word for God is not Jehovah, nor is it God. The word is Elohim, the plural form of God. So if the Gods created man in their image, after their likeness, male and female, wouldn't that imply that if men are in the image of God, and women were in the image of God, that God is comprised of both male and female?

Methodist scholar Dr. Margaret Barker has just written a fascinating new book entitled The Mother of the Lord, Vol. 1: The Lady in the Temple. In it, she traces the ancient Israelite tradition that God has a consort. The review states: "Margaret Barker traces the roots of the devotion to Mary as Mother of the Lord back to the Old Testament and the first temple in Jerusalem. The evidence is consistent over more than a millennium: there had been a female deity in Israel, the Mother figure in the Royal cult, who had been abandoned about 600 BCE. She was almost written out of the Hebrew text, almost excluded from the canon. This first of two volumes traces the history of the Lady in the Temple, and looks forward to the second volume in which Barker will show how the Lady of the Temple is reclaimed in the advent of Christianity, and becomes the Lady in the Church. The result is breathtaking, and like all Barker's work, is impossible to put down."

In her introduction, she writes: "A vast spectrum of material points to this pattern of events, and in this first volume I shall present evidence for the lost Lady of the first temple and for her first exile. She was removed from texts by the work of ancient scribes and the assumptions of biblical scholars. In the second volume I shall show how she survived during the time of the second temple, and how her temple was finally restored by the Christians."

Barker also has documented the ancient Israelite concept that Yahweh (Jehovah) is not the Father God, but was the firstborn of the Father God and was the God of Israel. In other words, Jehovah is not Michael the Archangel, but is the premortal Jesus Christ.

15

What you were TOLD vs. what Jesus SAID: getting SAVED

by humbled in

could jesus have shown us the way to healing, preservation, wholeness but we turned ministry his into a theological nightmare?.

just wondering if punkofnice and my family will be bonding in hell together 'cause they aren't "saved".. and wondering if i really am an apostate..

Cold Steel

Are you saying you think that the JW ministry may have been intended to be one thing, but that it was morphed into somthing else? That the Lord's work failed because of the foibles of men?

I don't see the Lord working in that manner because failure isn't his forte. The big mistake is in assuming that the WBTS has any involvement with God whatsoever. It always floors me when someone realizes the WT Society isn't of God, but then tries to make it so.

Salvation is a journey, not a destination, and we must gain it through fear and trembling.

13

Bible Prophecies

by Suspicious in

for those that don't think the bible is the word of god, how do you disprove the prophecies recorded in the bible?

even for those that agree with the world of god, what makes you believe the prophecies are true?

looking to hear both sides of it..

Cold Steel

As for me if i belived in God i would concentrate on God is love and he created me and we are all his beloved children, and let's give unconditional love a chance.

Well, God is misunderstood by most sectarians. To think that God would throw any of his children into neverending fire, regardless of how evil they might be, to burn forever and never be consumed, is inconceivable. That said, there has to be justice mixed with mercy. People have to come to an understanding of their own nature and have a way to purge the evil within one's self. Hell isn't vengeance, it's a refiner's fire. Imagine if someone like Stalin, Mao, or Hitler had to fully comprehend the effects of their acts on each of their victims. Even if God did not judge such people, they would ultimately judge themselves. And though their acts were horrendously evil, forever is a loooooooong time. None of us can comprehend a trillion years, yet a trillion years is the quickest blink in eternity.

There are no prophecies in the bible.

Cofty, the Bible is loaded with prophecies. We know Isaiah 53 was in existence at the time of Christ and the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that many of the scriptures people thought were written after the facts, in fact, weren't. There are many prophecies in Isaiah which have already come to pass, as well as many in Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Malachi. Daniel correctly prophecied the successive empires that would follow Babylon.

Isaiah wrote:

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (Isa. 11:11-12)

The Lord recovered his people once during the days of the Babylonian captivity. Then, in the mid-1800s, the Jews began returning to Palestine as the Lord, for the second time, began recovering his people. And in 1947, Judah declared itself an independant nation and the prophecy is still being fulfilled. The prophets also point to the nations "round about" Israel as Judah's enemies just before the coming of Christ. This wasn't the case in the past, but it is today.

The Antichrist

As Joel Richardson pointsout in his book, The Islamic Antichrist, Christian prophecies and Muslim prophecies are essentially the same, only inversely. The Sheites expect a prophet known as the Mahdi, and the return of Jesus, who will give deference to the Mahdi and explain to the Christians that he wasn't the Son of God; that God doesn't have a Son. He will do miracles and mighty works which will lead away the Muslims and even many Christians. On the other hand, many Christians expect both a false prophet and a false messiah. The false prophet, or "Beast," will be deferred to by the false Christ, and the false Christ will do many miracles and lead away many, even the elect (if it were possible). The Muslim Mahdi will also lead an assault against the Jews. The Beast of Revelation also makes war with the Jews during the battle of Armageddon.

The prophet Joel, Richardson's namesake, describes the power and might of the Antichrist, or Beast:

Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong. There hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. (Joel 2:1-3)

And the prophet Ezekiel speaks of the same event, though he addresses the Beast as if he were present:

After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. ... And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. (See Ezek. 38-39)

Finally, Zechariah writes:

The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. (See Zech. 12-14)

Hyperbole

Naturally, "all the people of the earth" is hyperbole, such as used throughout the Old Testament. Daniel, in speaking of the future Medes-Persian Empire, said, " And after thee shall arise another kingdom...which shall bear rule over all the earth. " Most Bible scholars understand that the Persian Empire did not rule the peoples of China, Western Europe, Africa and North and South America; however, the Jehovah's Witnesses tell their members Armageddon has to be a worldwide event (WRONG!) because Revelation 16:14 states that "the kings of the entire inhabited earth" form a "united front" against Jehovah.

The King James Version of the same quote (and a little more):

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. ... And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Prophecy is something not something the leaders of the Society understand. The kings that gather to fight the battle of Armageddon consist of a nation to the north (China? Russia? Turkey?), "Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee." (Ezek. 38:1-6)

So to say there are no prophecies in the Bible just doesn't wash. Whether they will ever come to pass or not, that's another issue. Certainly the first century Jews thought their Messiah would appear when the Romans came down upon them in 76 A.D. But they were mistaken. Still heady over the Macabees success, they felt certain the Lord would uphold them against the three Roman legions. Even the Jews on Masada felt sure they had been delivered. But the word of the Christian prophets and apostles was against them. And as their own prophets had written, they were killed and driven into the nations of the earth.

The Dispersion and Gathering of Judah

Ezekiel, looking into the future, knew that Judah was to be dispersed into the nations of the earth:

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them. Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; after that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified them in the sight of many nations. Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God . (Ezek. 39:23-29)

Detail of Prophecy

So far the prophecies cited have come to pass with unfailing accuracy. After the fall of Rome, thousands were nailed to crosses lining all the roadways. Thousands more were sold into slavery to work in salt mines or serve in other backbreaking work. The Christian apostles had received revelation to flee from the city before the Romans got there, and they gathered in Pella and other cities to the north.

After their dispersion, the Lord abandoned them because of their wholesale rejection and murder of their Messiah. Ezekiel said that the " house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword." Not only were they murdered by the Romans, they were murdered by the Catholic church in large numbers in 1492 and, later, in the 1940s under the Nazis. But "after that they have borne their shame" the Lord "gathered them out of their enemies' lands" and "sanctified them in the sight of many nations." All of these things happened in detail.

But how do we know this wasn't fulfilled in another time? Because the Lord states in verse 29 that, "Neither will I hide my face any more from them." In other words, the house of Judah will return to its lands cleansed and redeemed. Then, once they occupy their land, the Jews will fight their greatest enemy yet, and the Lord will protect them and convert them.

13

Bible Prophecies

by Suspicious in

for those that don't think the bible is the word of god, how do you disprove the prophecies recorded in the bible?

even for those that agree with the world of god, what makes you believe the prophecies are true?

looking to hear both sides of it..

Cold Steel

I believe the more one knows about prophecy, the more plausible Christianity becomes. Amos writes that surely the Lord God doeth nothing save he will reveal his secrets unto his servents the prophets. (Amos 3:7) The scriptures point the way, clearly, towards the life and mission of Jesus Christ, his identity and mission (Isa. 53). Also the dispersion and restoration of Israel as a nation, the root of Jesse, the ensign to the Gentiles and the swiftness in their gathering (Isa. 11). They talk about the rebuilding of the temple, the two prophets to be raised up to defend them (Rev. 11), the destroyer from the North (Ezek. 38-39), the Lord's hand in strengthening the Jews (also, Zech. 12-14) and the destruction of the Beast, the salvation of the Jews, as well as the aftermath of the war itself that culminates in the battle of Armageddon.

Understanding prophecy is fairly simple, although the JW Society typically takes a straightforward prophecy and turns it into something so convoluted that God, Himself, wouldn't recognize it. Prophecy also clearly states that Jesus Christ is Jehovah, or Yahweh. Jehovah will judge the nations, Jehovah was the creator, Jehovah is the beginning and the end...and so on. In the New Testament, all these are attributed to Jesus.

Not only do they screw the pooch on that one, they have absolutely no clue as to what Armageddon is. I have an entire Watchtower about Armageddon here, and the writers are so confused they don't know what its significance is.

85

My Letter to Brooklyn about the Parousia that got me disfellowshipped

by cofty in

this is the letter i wrote back in '96 about the parousia.

following the '95 watchtower that disconnected the "generation" from 1914 i began to look carefully at end-time prophecy and soon discovered what i knew were basic errors in what i had been taught.. i was a loyal jw at the time and was still serving as an elder.

i used only watchtower publications in my research.

Cold Steel

Although they live over 100 miles away my local elders drove to their house and took a statement from them. I then got a visit from two elders inviting me to a meeting so we could all have a chat and try to help me. Yeah right! I insisted on knowing if it ws JC, what the charge was and who my accusers were.

If you had attended the meeting, let them set you straight and tore up the letter, would they have backed off? When the big lions come through, the younger lions roll over on their backs in acquiescence.

Anyway long story short they dragged my in laws up to Berwick to tell a lot of lies. My MIL sat reading from notes that were in my FILs handwriting. The JC was pathetic but that's another thread.

So what does your FIL have against you? You apparently trusted him enough to let you read the letter. What would have happened if the elders had stood up for you?

4

The PROBLEM of MONO theism: the rise of puritanical fanatics!

by Terry in

the source of greatest conflict in our world today rests in two separate beliefs whose friction is unbearably incendiary.. it is a matter of priority.

which is most important?.

1. the here and now (life from cradle to grave).. or.

Cold Steel

Your report, above, is fraught with inaccuracies and generalities, especially as they pertained to first century Christianity and its expecations.

The Romans sent legions to destroy the ability of Jews to continue worship by razing the temple in Jerusalem.

Actually, it was important to both Titus and Vespasian that the temple be spared. The Romans were thus forbidden to torch the temple. Nevertheless, a Roman was witnessed throwing a firebrand into the temple. One of the Roman officers immediately ordered his soldiers to begin battling the blaze and it wasn't long before the Jews were assisting them. But it was too little too late. The temple was doomed, as Jesus had predicted.

In Christianity, fundamentalists proclaim Satan has polluted society and the world at large and only ARMAGEDDON will cleanse the planet and bring about reward for THEMSELVES alone!

In Judaism and fundamentalist Christianity, Armageddon is considered the last great battle of the age. It is to take place in northern Israel and will be an assault on Jerusalem. The Christian authorities knew that the Jews would engage the Romans and that many of them would be killed and that many more would be scattered to the four corners of the earth. They knew that after many years the Jews would return to the lands of their inheritance and reestablish the nation of Israel. The temple would be rebuilt and that the city would come under siege by "the Beast" (see Rev. 11). The Lord would send two prophets to defend them and after three and a half years, they would be killed. The battle would culminate with the return of Jesus, and all nations would behold it. The "cleansing," however, would come later, after the destruction of the Beast and his army, a sixth of which will be spared.

First Century christianity is a MYTH for evangelical christians because it never existed as a SOLIDARITY among the faithful. It only existed as arguments, debates, discord, name-calling and finger-pointing.

First century Christianity began quite well, actually, and there was a solidarity amongst them for awhile. But Jesus, during the 40 days following his resurrection, told the apostles that nothing lay ahead of them but death. The church would not survive, but not because of its enemies outside, but because of wolves entering in the fold not sparing the flock. In the extrabiblical Gospel of Thomas, Jesus tells this parable:

“The kingdom of the Father is like a certain woman who was carrying a jar full of meal. While she was walking on the road, still some distance from home, the handle of the jar broke, and the meal emptied out behind her on the road. She did not realize it; she had noticed no accident. When she reached her house, she set the jar down and found it empty.” [trans. Lambdin (1988)]

The loss of spiritual gifts in the church would happen so slowly that eventually only the form of the church would be left. The substance itself would be gone. But it cannot be successfully argued that the church didn't teach solidarity among the faithful. Just as Moses had been taken from the Israelites, so, too, were the apostles, prophets and others who held the church together. Jesus warned the faithful that it would be the wolves on the inside who would destroy the integity of the church.

85

My Letter to Brooklyn about the Parousia that got me disfellowshipped

by cofty in

this is the letter i wrote back in '96 about the parousia.

following the '95 watchtower that disconnected the "generation" from 1914 i began to look carefully at end-time prophecy and soon discovered what i knew were basic errors in what i had been taught.. i was a loyal jw at the time and was still serving as an elder.

i used only watchtower publications in my research.

Cold Steel

Your letter was polite, to te point, professional and well documented.

But I understand why they reacted as they did. These are the kinds of letters that tend to be passed around. And while it was logical, it also was subversive because the Society doesn't have the tolerances to allow for messing with the 1914 year. It's a mainstay of the religion and it's not negotiable. Why? Because it's been questioned so often that the Society has become entrenched in defending it. The GB could have published your letter in the Watchtower and asked for feedback. Then the GB could, an issue or two later, issue a decision on it.

What were the mechanics of the actual disfellowshipment? Were you notified of your disfellowshipment by letter? How did they know you had showed your missive to your father-in-law, and what rule in the Society were you violating? Can you post the letter they wrote to you? Were they respectful? What if the elders in a Kingdom Hall don't want to excommunicate you? Does the GB have that much authority?

This is so foreign to anything I've ever seen; it smacks of communism. Did they ever give you a chance to withdraw the letter? To repent? Or did they just send you a note saying you're history? If I understand the doctrine, if the judgment comes suddenly, and you're excommunicated, then you're destroyed. No passing Go, no collecting two hundred dollars.

Incredible.

90

Numbers don't lie :The End of JESUS...

by raymond frantz in

(1john2:22,23)who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that jesus is the christ?

this is the antichrist, the one that denies the father and the son.

23 everyone that denies the son does not have the father either.

Cold Steel

Jehovans...I like that. Sounds better than Jay-Dubs.

BTW, how did the Society come up with the idea that Michael and Jesus were the same? And does Jesus really have wings? How much of that is artistic lisence and how much actual doctrine?

If angels have wings, then Jesus should have wings. Right?